Presented in St. Mary's Hospital Chapel on December 18, 2005

Today we will use scriptures from the Old Testament, the Psalms, and the Gospels.

2 Samuel 7:1-16.

Romans 16: 25-27.

Gospel Lesson Luke 1:26-38

"The Perfect Christmas"

One of my favorite Christmas gifts is an Amaryllis. It is the gift that keeps on giving. When we lived in Bristol my mother gave us an Amaryllis that was in full bloom on Christmas day. The vibrance of those broad, thick, leaves. The virility of the strong stalk that holds the beautiful bold red trumpets of flowers. Could there be a more perfect gift? The fun part is that when this bulb finishes it’s blooming you still have a beautiful green plant that will thrive into the summer and can be an outside plant. If you plan things just right you can even force that same bulb to bloom again on the next Christmas day. A perfect Christmas! That is what I have named this homily, "the perfect Christmas."

Well, this Christmas will not be the perfect one with my efforts to have the Amaryllis blooming by next Sunday. And to be really honest, I have not had the perfect one yet. You see, to get the Amaryllis to bloom just right and on time you have to plan things just right. The green leaves have to be cut and the bulb has to be uprooted and the whole thing has to be placed in the cool dark around the end of August. It is then resurrected around the end of October to be planted in some fertile soil, watered, and placed in the sun. Soon the shoot of the first leaf begins to emerge and the stalk begins to form that will hold those stunning trumpet blooms. It seems that I don’t quite get the timing right to make it a perfect Christmas. I have looked at the 2006 calendar. If I will start the process on August 31 and then replant the bulbs on All Saints Day, I think next Christmas will be perfect.

What does this have to do with the scriptures for the day? Well, we know that the human gestation period is 38 weeks, give or take a couple weeks. So, God must have made the announcement we find in the gospel of Luke some time around 38 weeks before the day of the birth of the Christ to make it a perfect Christmas. Not to mention the fact that this woman was still a virgin and had no way to be impregnated other than by the Holy Spirit. You do realize that artificial insemination had yet to be invented.

There is also the lesson we read from 2 Samuel. What does that tell us about the perfect Christmas? Well, that plan had to start not 38 weeks prior but eight hundred to nine hundred YEARS prior to the birth of the Christ to make it a perfect Christmas. You see, King David that we read about in our lesson for today was born around 907 BCE and died after serving as king for 40 years around 837 BCE. He was the great, great, great, great, for 28 generations grandfather. So, God had to plan this event for quite a long time to make the perfect Christmas.

Of course, we read a third scripture lesson from Paul’s letter to the Romans where he talks about "the mystery that was kept secret for long ages." What was that mystery? Of course it was the mystery of the Christ who was to come to save the world from sin. That plan took not 38 weeks, nor even nine hundred years, but "long ages" to perform. As far back as the beginning of sin in the world, God designed the mysterious plan of the incarnation. Christ was to come into the world, through the human vessel Mary, to bring the message of grace and forgiveness of sin. What a perfect Christmas gift!

Now it is up to you to have the perfect Christmas. It really does not happen because you planted the Amaryllis at the right time. It really does not happen because you have received or even have given the perfect gift. It does not happen because you have seen all your favorite holiday movies with all your favorite friends or family. It happens when you realize that the Christ became incarnate for you. Receive the perfect Christmas as you welcome the Christ.

Amen.

Presented in St. Mary's Hospital Chapel on December 4, 2005

Isaiah 11: 1 – 10

Romans 15 : 4 – 13

Matthew 3: 1 – 12

“Hope for the Holidays”

I really don’t know how many of you who are listening normally attend one of the liturgical churches in the area. In the liturgical churches, we began the new Christian year last Sunday with the beginning of Advent. Advent covers the four Sundays prior to Christmas day. Each Sunday has a different emphasis to help us prepare for the coming of the Christ. Each Sunday we light a new candle in the Advent wreath and that candle is the reminder of the emphasis for that week. The emphasis for this week is on the Hope that is brought by the coming of the Christ.

We certainly hear the hope in the scriptures for the day. Isaiah says that even though the ancient father Jesse has been dead for many years there is still hope. “A shoot shall come out from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots.” That shoot is the one we have come to know as the Christ.

The Christ is the one who we still hope will bring about the fulfillment of the prophecy we read today. We are still looking for that time when

The wolf shall live with the lamb,
the leopard shall lie down with the kid,
the calf and the lion and the fatling together,
and a little child shall lead them.
The cow and the bear shall graze,
their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp,
and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder's den.

But, wait. Let’s talk more about what is happening in our world today. We have come through Thanksgiving and are now into Advent. Christmas will be but a few days away. A time that often causes us to think of many happy times is not always so joyous for those who have recent losses. The holidays can be some of the most devastating times when all the world is celebrating and you can only think of that recently deceased loved one.

During the week I have an office where I spend my days as a pastoral counselor to individuals, couples, and families. One of my clients recently said, “I was ambushed by Thanksgiving. I just didn’t think about the sadness and depression that come on me during the holidays. Mother was diagnosed with cancer in October and she was gone by January.”

Another client said, “this is a terrible time of the year for me. I wish I could go to sleep the day before Thanksgiving and wake up on January 2.” How many of those listening today have said something similar? So, is that what we need to do? Do we need to just cover our heads hoping that the memories will rush on past?

Dr. John Burruss from Baylor College of Medicine says, “Don’t leave the loss unspoken. That is an injustice to the person who has been lost. . . Everyone knows its there. Everyone can feel it.” So, don’t leave your loved one out of your holidays.

However, Burruss also says, on the other hand, “(y)ou don’t want to make the holidays a constant memorial.” That is no more healthy than trying to deny you have had a loss.

Ann Landers had a column a few years ago where she offered some tips for dealing with loss during holidays. The tips include:

o Change traditions. Have Christmas dinner at a different house this year. It is a paradox that the more you try to make it the same as it was before, the more obvious your loved one’s absence will be.
o Balance solitude with sociability. Solitude can renew strength. Being with people you care about can be equally important. Plan to attend some holiday parties. You may surprise yourself by having a good time.
o Relive the happy memories. Pick three special memories of past holidays with your loved one. Recall them often., especially if outbursts of grief seem to occur at an inappropriate time.
o Set aside ‘letting go’ time. Schedule specific time on your calendar to grieve. When you know you set aside this time it will be easier for you to postpone your flow of grief in public.
o Counter the conspiracy of silence. Because family and friends love you, they may think they are doing you a favor by not mentioning your loved one for fear you will be upset. Break the ice by mentioning him or her yourself. Tell your family and friends that it is important for you to talk about your loved one during the holiday season when that missing person is very much on your mind.
o Find a creative outlet. Write a memorial poem or story about your loved one and share it. Contribute to or work with a group that your loved one supported. Use the money that you would have spent for a gift for that special person to buy something for someone he or she cared about.
o Don’t forget the rest of the family. Try especially hard to make it a good holiday for the children. Listen to them. Talk to them. If decorating the tree or buying Christmas gifts is too difficult for you to do this year, ask a friend to do it for you.

And, finally . . .

Utilize available resources. If your faith is important to you, participate in the holiday church services. Some veterans of the faith have a serenity, a kind of healing wisdom. They can help you. Seek out a support group of other victims or start your own short-term support group to help you through the holidays.

It is tempting to conclude that life is awful during the holidays. Yes, you will have some difficult times, but you can also experience some (of the hope of the season.) Feeling hopeful does not mean that you have forgotten your loved one or that you have loved him or her any less. Let yourself go.

Remember, you cannot change the past. You cannot cause your loved one to return. You can, however, take care of the present. That is a different understanding for the term present than we usually think of at this time. So, consider the present for this holiday season can be an opportunity for hope.

Advent reminds us that the Christ is coming. Yes, the Christ has come. And, the Christ will come again.

Amen.

Presented in St. Mary's Hospital Chapel on November 27, 2005

Isaiah 64: 1 – 9.

Psalm 80:1-7, 17-19

Mark 13: 24 – 37


“Keep Awake”

May the words of my mouth and the meditations of our hearts be always acceptable to you, O Lord, our strength and our redeemer! Amen.

Today is the first Sunday of Advent! I am not sure how many of you are aware of Advent and what it means. Most of the liturgical churches will celebrate the season of Advent each year for the four Sundays leading up to Christmas. Some of the non-liturgical churches are not even aware of such a season. If you look in the dictionary you will see this as the first definition, about the churches and their observance.

The second and third definitions are the ones that I want to spend more time on today. The second says that Advent recognizes the coming of Christ at the Incarnation, when he was born, in the flesh.

Much of our Advent focus seems to be on the day of Christmas, the babe that comes in the manger. It is important to have this focus each year because without the event of the Christ being born in the flesh, there would not be a Christian church. We are Christian because we serve the Christ that was born of the Virgin Mary, bringing God in human form to be one of us.

We serve the Christ that was heralded by the angels and even fills so many of our traditional carols. We serve the Christ who was worshipped by the shepherds and who was visited by the Magi.

So, if that is what Advent is about, how did we choose the scriptures we read today? Where is the seasonal sweetness of infants and hay and carols? What kind of Christmas preparation is this? These scriptures are talking about a God who is far away and punishing. They talk about the end times when “the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.”

Those passages speak of the third definition of the term Advent, the Second coming. They are not pleasant. That is probably why I don’t consider myself an Adventist, one who focuses so heavily on that end of time and the Second coming of Christ. Now, don’t get me wrong, I do believe that there is that time coming. The scriptures today tell me why it is important to believe it and to plan for it.

It is so easy to live life with the infant Christ. It is so much fun to think about the birth, the love that is shown, the adoration of the shepherds and wise men. It is a joy to decorate our homes with the manger scenes, and lights, and listen to the carols of “peace on earth good will to all humankind.”

It is difficult to spend time realizing that this same Christ has promised to return to earth and bring an end to the life that we currently know. It is fearful to spend time thinking that there will be a day like that described in the Gospel reading when “he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.” But, even though it is fearful, it is truly what we as Christians say we are waiting for.

Every Sunday, as we will in just a few minutes, we say our Nicene Creed where it reminds us that “He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.” That is part of our belief whether we want to call ourselves Adventists or not. The promise and joy in that belief is the very fact that when this does occur, that kingdom will have no end. It will then be an eternal banquet with the Christ.

Well, I realize that this is not the traditional message of snowmen and angels and trees and tinsel that we see in all the department stores, now beginning just after Halloween. It is, I think, a hopeful message. It is a reminder directly from the scriptures that our life is to be one in which we “keep awake” to the assurance that some day, “no one knows when, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father,” the Christ will come again to gather his followers unto himself for all eternity.

That is the message of Advent. Christ was born. Christ has died. Christ has risen. Christ will come again. Keep awake, ready for that day.

Amen.

 

Presented on Mental Health Awareness Sunday, October 16, 2005, at St. John's Episcopal Cathedral, Knoxville

“Leveling the Playing Field: Eliminating the Unintended Consequences of Mental Illness”

Scripture:

Isaiah 45: 1 – 7
Psalm 96: 1 – 9
Matthew 22: 15 – 22



First, I want to thank Dean Ross and the clergy here at the Cathedral for allowing me to offer a sermon on the day that we have designated as Mental Health Awareness Sunday. We had our first of these last year and it is good to see that the parish is continuing to keep some focus on the awareness of mental health issues in our neighborhood.

As I started to develop this sermon I looked to the national campaign for this week. The theme adopted for this recognition this year is “Leveling the Playing Field: Eliminating the Unintended Consequences of Mental Illness.”

Having worked on a planning committee earlier in the year I know that a major piece of this emphasis is due to the stigma that we continue place on people who struggle with mental illness. We seem to see “them” as somehow different than “us,” and, unfortunately, not quite as worthy or deserving. I hope that, if nothing else is accomplished by this one day a year, we, at St. John’s, can break that pattern, and level the playing field.

Next, I turned to the prayer book to see what the scripture was for today. What did I find? One passage is about a messiah named Cyrus. The other is a question about paying taxes to Caesar. Well, that’s a lot of help. I think now I know why I got to preach on this Sunday. Who would want to try to preach on either of those texts, whether it is Mental Health Awareness Sunday or not?

Isn’t it nice to be able to get away from home sometimes? You can call down to the front desk and ask for a wake up call. You can go to sleep with no cares and know that someone will make sure you get up when you are supposed to However, I do get embarrassed each time this happens because I always pick up the phone and say, “hello . . .” thinking there is going to be some real person on the other end.

I hope for the next few minutes you might just sit back and let me try to give you a wake up call that I hear from the scriptures for today. After I looked a little closer, there was more in these passages than I ever realized.

When you study today’s passage from Isaiah in seminary, if the professor doesn’t say it, you already know that you can never preach about a messiah named Cyrus. But that’s what the scripture literally says.

A messiah is a deliverer or savior. King Cyrus was chosen by the Lord and used by the Lord to deliver his people and so everyone will know that “there is no other, besides me there is no God.” And God said this to Cyrus even “though you do not know me.”

Wow! So, what Father Tom said last week in his sermon was true. We are all unique and special to God, whether we are Babylonian, Afghani, Muslim, or Jew. We can all be loved and used by God whether we are bank presidents with our lives in perfect order, or we are hourly workers riddled with anxieties and phobias.

It was four weeks ago today, in the adult Forum, as Dean Ross was introducing our first study of the parables that he said something that has helped to inform this sermon. He was talking about how we might approach interpreting the parables we are studying in that class, but it seemed to have an even broader import for me. He said, “Ask yourself the question, What is the problem I am in?” After you have read the passage and done some of the usual exegesis, make it personal. [At least that is what I understood you to mean.]

O.K., so now I come to St. John’s to preach for this Mental Health Awareness Sunday and I get assigned a gospel passage on paying taxes. “What is the problem I am in?” No. Wait, you’ve got it all wrong. I have paid my taxes, but what does this have to do with mental health? What does it have to do with a problem I am in?

If you know much about me you will remember me talking about John Claypool and the influence he has had on my life. He died recently and I think the church has lost a tremendous leader. Every chance he had he would tell the story of the loss of his nine-year-old daughter to leukemia. The part of the story that stuck with me the longest was when he told of his anger at God for taking away this precious one from him. You who are parents can surely understand how he would feel. It is just not right for a child to die before her parents.

Did John Claypool have a mental illness? You better believe he did. He had a mental illness of depression and unresolved grief. He had a mental illness of misplaced anger. He had a mental illness of unforgiveness. Oh, you may say, wait a minute David, some of those diagnoses are not in the DSM-IV, and you would be right. However, my belief is that those are mental illnesses just the same.

In the months after his daughter’s death, though, John Claypool came to a leveling of the playing field. He realized that Laura Lou was a gift from God. He may have never had her at all, but he did have her for those nine years and what a gift.

The Pharisees are trying to trap Jesus by asking about paying taxes. Jesus deflects the Pharisees' malice by redirecting their thoughts to God's sovereignty.

Let me see if you can follow my rambling as I try to make some sense out of this attempt to ensnare Jesus. The commentator I read said when the Pharisees came to trap Jesus with the question about taxes, Jesus’ response did not and does not solve the problem but simply defines the nature of the struggle. Remember Dean Ross’ challenge to us? He is basically saying, figure out the nature of the struggle here.

The church, of Jesus’ era, wanted to know how to decide some difficult issues, much like the church of the present time wants. We wish that Jesus would answer all those questions about stewardship, about political affiliation, about human sexuality, about the war, about the next supreme court justice, etc., etc., etc., with a clear yes or no answer. Instead, Jesus simply defines the nature of the struggle.

Jesus realizes that all we humans are trying to do is proof-text his words. If he would just say, “sure it is lawful to pay taxes to Caesar,” we could then jump on whatever band wagon we wanted and ride that one into the ground. Or, which is more nearly the case, we could ride the other party into the ground because they feel differently.

What he did though was to say there’s not an answer here that will satisfy everyone. So the church will just have to struggle with each new issue as it arises.

What he did show was the nature of the struggle. Just like with Claypool, Jesus wants us to realize that every cent we own is a gift from God. When we realize that, the taxes we are asked to pay are of little significance.

What happened with Jesus was that he ended up alone. The church and the state both conspired against him in the end. There is not a heavier demand anywhere in the gospels than this, obey God whether it means facing political wrath or whether it means losing the support of your community of faith.

Now how does this relate to mental health? Well, you see, when I started out to write this sermon I was confusing mental health with mental illness. It is hard to see what paying taxes has to do with mental illness, unless you want to label governmental lawmakers who designed the current tax structure as mentally ill. Or, you might see that having to figure how you will pay your taxes could lead to a mental illness or some form of anxiety disorder.

What I see Jesus being up to in this situation is leveling the playing field. Jesus knows that we all have our own conditions of mental illness, whether it be depression, anger, shame, unforgiveness, marital infidelity, or schizophrenia. In addressing the nature of the struggle, Jesus is telling us how to achieve mental health.

It is easy to ask the question, “Jesus, what do we do with those in our town, our church, our home, with mental illness?” It is just like the trap that the Pharisees set for Jesus in this story. He couldn’t win.

He could say we should go to the streets and save all those who are homeless because of severe mental illness and someone would find fault with that.

He could say we should present programs in our churches about some of the more acceptable mental illnesses like postpartum depression or anxiety or substance abuse and someone would find fault with that.

He could say we should let the government develop programs to deal with all mental illnesses and let the Helen Ross McNabb Centers and the Lakeshore Mental Health Institutes handle those problems and someone would find fault with that.

The scriptures for today are trying to remind us that God is sovereign. There is no right answer that all the church members in all the churches across this globe and through the ages will ever agree to.

In the end we each have to listen to that still small voice from God and decide for ourselves. That is how we find mental health.

Amen.
 

Presented at the Episcopal Church of the Resurrection, Loudon, TN, April 17, 2005

“Who is on the List?”

Scripture: Psalm 23
Acts 6: 1 – 9; 7: 2a, 51 – 60
John 10: 1 – 10

May the words of my mouth and the meditations of our hearts be acceptable in your sight Oh Lord our strength and our redeemer. Amen.

How many of you read those lists??? You know the ones. At the first of the year they are everywhere. Time magazine’s top ten . . . People magazine’s sexiest man. The top 10 movies of 2004. The best preachers in the U. S. I’ll tell you David Lovett did not make that one. What about those nightly lists from David Letterman??? The # 6 reason why Jennifer Lopez did not . . . You tell me which ones you read. But, don’t we all read them to see if we are there? It is nearly graduation time. Students and parents alike are hoping to see familiar names on the Dean’s List. For our study today I hope we can consider whose names are on the Shepherd’s List.

I am a pastoral counselor. I wish I had a ten dollar bill for every time I have been asked the question, “what is that? Does it mean you counsel pastors?” Well, no, it doesn’t. But, I do counsel pastors. And that is the most rewarding part of what I do.

Just this week I was counseling with a pastor who has been seeing me for about three months. She came to me because she was wondering if she could be authentic and still be a pastor with all the feelings she was having. She felt like she knew the meaning of the Psalm for today. Did you hear that line where the psalmist said, “even when I go through the valley of deepest darkness.” She has been in that deep dark valley. The church was not seeming to go the way she felt the gospel was leading her. She reported to me a number of those issues. She said, “Some times the people just don’t seem to get what I mean when I deliver my sermons. Their understanding about justice issues is so foreign to mine. Do you know what it has been like to be called as a female minister? What about capital punishment? What about the inclusion of lesbians and gays? [And she is a United Methodist minister] What about the inclusive language we are trying to use in our worship services? Can I serve an all masculine God? Do the people who make my list fit the list that God draws, or for that matter, the list of the church that I serve?”

How does any counselor answer questions like that????? Thank goodness I don’t have to. My job is to help her answer those questions herself.

This is Good Shepherd Sunday in the Episcopal Church. It is for any church that follows the standard lectionary readings. It is easy to see why when we read that gospel lesson from John.

“The person who goes in through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens the gate for her; the sheep hear her voice as she calls her own sheep by name, and she leads them out. When she has brought them out, she goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow her, because they know her voice.”

The passage that picks up right after those verses says, “The good shepherd lays down her life for the sheep.”

What does that mean? Who is John talking about? It is supposed to be the words of Jesus. It reminds me of the resurrection words of Jesus we hear a few chapters later in John’s gospel.

The disciples have been fishing all night and catch nothing. They come into shore just after daybreak and the resurrected Jesus is standing there on the shore with fish on the grill. He asks Simon Peter, “Do you love me?” “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus says to him, “Tend my sheep.”

From that time forward, every pastor who ever served has been seen as the shepherd of the flock of God.

That is no easy task.

Well, let me get back for a minute to the pastor I am working with in Bristol. She did not know what she was going to do. She didn’t know where she would find those answers. However, she just happened to go in the past week to a lecture by Fred Craddock. Any of you know that name? Of course SuZanne does. And so does George. Maybe others of you too. He is a Disciples of Christ preacher who taught preaching at Candler Seminary for years. He said two things in that day lecture that have changed the life of that Methodist preacher.

First, from Romans chapter 8, Craddock highlighted the passage where it says, “the whole creation has been groaning in labor pains until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit (the resurrected life in Christ), groan inwardly while we wait for adoption [as children of God].” Craddock said to his audience, if you don’t feel the groan you have not been called to be a child of God. This minister said to me in that hour on Thursday, “Oh, David, I feel the groan! I feel the groan! I feel the groan!”

Have you felt the groan? Do you know what he is talking about? The groan of wanting to do all that Christ commands; wanting to address those justice issues of life; wanting to see Christ in every person; wanting every person to love the next and work in peace and harmony; and yet not quite being able to see it happen.

Craddock went on to ask, “what happens when you feel the groan and the church you serve does not?”

The married couple who have written today’s Forward Day by Day reflection chose to focus on Stephen’s stoning at the hands of church leaders. “Angered by Stephen’s blistering message,” they say, “the crowd killed the messenger.”

They say, “we can do horribly destructive things in groups that we would never do as individuals. Swept up in the moment and often manipulated, we allow emotion to override reason and values. Things get out of control, as they did in the stoning of Stephen, when people stop listening and stampede to rash harmful actions.”

Some times when you feel the groan and know it is from God, others still do not feel it. The reflection goes on, “As Christians, we are called to an entirely different model of group dynamics, one in which leaders are servants, all are respected and heard, and action comes after prayer and discernment.”

Craddock’s second point that stuck so firmly with this pastor was about who is on the list. When Fred Craddock started his little church in north Georgia several years ago he said to his parishioners, “As we begin to decide who will be in this church, who is on the list, let’s use this criterion. Let’s build our church by excluding all those whom Jesus excluded.”

Would that be a good example for the Church of the Resurrection to follow?

Here’s where I have to make a decision. Do I follow my Baptist roots and conclude this as a conversion sermon and press the audience for a personal commitment? Do I ask that any one of you who feels you know who needs to be on the list and want to announce that list come down here to the front right now and make a public show of your decision? Or do I continue on the road of the narrative sermon and simply end with a story that may make the point?

Well, as fate would have it, Fred Craddock tells a story about a time he went to a church to do a series of services on Friday and Saturday nights and Sunday morning. He writes, “When I pulled into the parking lot of the church, a funeral was concluding. People were moving to their automobiles; the hearse was still there. The minister saw me, recognized me, and motioned for me to come over. I didn’t want to intrude; I was just waiting until it was over. The minister was standing next to the widow. He introduced her, he introduced me, and I felt awkward. I said to her, ‘This is no time for you to be meeting strangers. I’m sorry, and I’m really sorry about your loss.’ Her husband had been killed in a car wreck and left her with four young children. I said, ‘I know this is a very difficult time for you.’ She said, "It is. So I won't be at the services tonight, but I'll be there tomorrow night, and I'll be there Sunday morning." Craddock said, "Oh you don't need to." "Yes, I do," she replied. Craddock spoke again, "Well, what I meant was, I know it's a very hard time for you." And she said, "I know it's hard. It's already hard, but you see this is my church, and they're going to see that my children and I are okay."

So does she make the list? Would her name fit on Resurrection’s list? Would Resurrection make her list? Is this the church that is going to see that each member is okay?

During this fourth week of Easter, a time to remember and to live a resurrection life, let’s ask ourselves two questions. “Am I feeling the groan that will lead to my adoption as a child of God?” And as I go forth from this place today can I be committed to seeing Christ in every person I meet and treat each of them as someone who makes the list?

Amen.